Intro:

First off, this is a sequel to this guide: (/post/58ef0e73d545eab05e26). So if you haven't read that yet, go read it and then come back to this one. Now, this is the guide for taking the next step as a refunder. If you followed the steps in guide one, you should be sitting on a good few thousand. This is not profit! This is to be reinvested back into your operation continually until you reach a point of consistent income that you can afford to start taking profits. In this guide, I'm going to teach you how to use your skills and resources you got from the beginner guide to get new payment methods, new drop addresses, and make a new type of store lists for larger refunds.

New Terminology:

Fullz: Basically a stolen identity, involving at the very least ssn dob name and address, and potentially including a lot more info, like dl#, iss exp date, credit report, background report, motor vehicle report, real id pictures, and more.

PR: Police Report. A lot of refunders see a request for a police report, and look for a way around it or just write it off as a failure. That's because they don't really know what they're doing. Police Report requests are gods gift to refunders.

Paypal Dispute: Disputing a transaction on paypal. This is usually a much easier way to get a high value refund than trying to refund it with the company directly, but you can't do them forever. I recommend at least 5 legit transactions on the paypal between each dispute, though the amount per transaction doesn't actually matter.

Chargeback: A last resort, calling your payment method company and giving them your sob story about how you never got the item, or how you returned it but they won't refund you, or whatever you go with. Very high success rate, but they can only be used a few times per company, so reserve them for very high value refunds.

Intermediate Refunding Methods:

There are basically two schools of thought here, the way most people do it, and how I do it. First, I'm gonna give you the rundown of what other people do, how they do it, the pros and the cons. Then, I'm going to go in detail about what I do, and the method I use, and why I think it's a better alternative. Which way you choose to go is up to you though, either way there's money to be made.

Ok, what most people do. This is where common refunders start using ftid techniques, as well as start using paypal on every order possible. Orders at this level are gonna generally range from $1-3k per order. At this point, just claiming dna or eb probably isn't going to cut it, so there's a more elaborate way of getting your money back. It generally goes something like this: DNA -> FTIDNA -> EB -> LIT -> Paypal Claim DNA -> Paypal Claim Returned but not Refunded -> Bank Claim. To explain that a little better, first you call the company and claim dna. If that fails, you use ftidna, and call them back to try again using the updated tracking info as your evidence of non-receipt. If that fails, claim you found the package but the box was empty. Use the cut and reseal method described in the previous installment of these posts. If that fails, request a return, and use a LIT scan to make the package get lost in transit. After a week or so, call them again, tell them you returned it but the package never got delivered (basic se), and ask for your money back. If that fails, you basically repeat these steps, but in a paypal claim rather than with the seller directly. First open a dispute claiming you never got the package, using the updated tracking info as evidence when paypal asks. If that doesn't work, open a new case, saying you returned the package but didn't get a refund (using the return tracking number that you did and LIT scan on as evidence). FTIDs are much more effective in a paypal claim than when you use them against a company, but there's no penalty for trying with the company first anyways. If all else fails, then they just do a chargeback on whichever bank/card they used to pay with. The idea is to give yourself as many opportunities as possible to get your money back, to increase your chances of getting a refund as much as possible. While I don't personally use this general idea, I have to admit it has some pros. The odds of every single one of these attempts all failing, is pretty low. Paypal claims are notoriously easy to win (especially with ftid and good se), and giving yourself 3 opportunities to se a refund before even involving paypal is very effective. It works on pretty much every store that accepts paypal, which is basically all of them. There is one major con, and it's why I don't use this personally. Going through each and every one of these attempts takes so long, the return window is almost certain to close before you know the outcome of your refund (success or fail). That's not an issue if one of the many attempts ends up working, but if they don't, you're stuck with something you can likely only sell for a certain percentage of it's value, meaning you lose money on it. I like refunding so much because it's the only school of fraud that you can actually keep the loss potential at 0 for, and I fucking hate losing money.

Now, for what I do. This method is for the same order category, $1-3k per order. My method is much more simple, and there's really only one step. I don't use any ftid scans, I keep it basic and call the company and claim eb/dna. The reason that this normally does not work, is because for these higher value orders, a signature is usually required upon receipt of the package. This actually doesn't matter at all for the type of stores this method is designed to hit, but I'll expand more on that later, in the storelist section. If you order from the right stores, using any method that heavily implies a package was stolen will prompt them to request that you file a police report (the trick is to use the world "stolen" a lot in your se). At this point, most refunders move on to the next step, and don't file the police report. That's usually because they have ordered the package to their address, under their own name. More on this in the receiving address section, but all orders at this stage should be shipped to drop houses, and you should be using a paypal at the minimum to pay, no personal debit/credit cards. If you follow the steps laid out in the rest of this (and summarized at the end), you should have ordered the package to a drop address with a shipping name that has nothing to do with you. If that's the case, then there is absolutely 0 risk in filing a police report. The truth is, cops are busy, and have much better things to do than track stolen packages. Almost every single police department allows you to file a police report over the phone or online, and then the cop follows up with you via phone call. Unless you request it, they don't travel to the location on the report, they don't even bring it up because they don't have time for that shit. They don't verify your identity, they just want to close your case file. When you file the report (under the name you used for the shipping info, not your name), and they call you, tell them you understand that they aren't going to find a petty package thief. The company just asked you to file a police report because you didn't get the package, so you're doing it. They should ask you some basic info, and then basically close the case. At that point, you ask for an email pdf copy of the case, and contact the company again. Send them the email of the pdf of the police report, and then you'll have to wait a few days as they call the police department themselves to confirm the reports authenticity. After that, they'll refund you. This doesn't happen for every store, but if you can cultivate a list of stores that have this policy (there's a lot of them), and you can follow the directions of the rest of this guide to place orders under different names to different addresses using payment methods not connected to you, you're going to be able to refund a lot of inventory really quickly and easily. Remember, if you have new shipping info, new billing info, and a new payment method (new name as well, duh) every time, neither the company nor the police will be able to put together any type of pattern, and you'll be able to exploit them for a long time to come. More on that later.

Intermediate Payment Methods:

At this point, paying just with your own debit/credit card straight up should be out of the question for whichever method you choose. If you want to use all the fancy ftid scans, you're gonna need the security of a paypal dispute to increase your chance of success to an appropriate level. And if you use my method of just filing prs, you definitely don't want to be using a payment method with your name, which again means a paypal at the very least. You can't just use your paypal for refunds, you have to also have legitimate transactions between them or you'll start running into issues. I recommend at least 5 transactions between refunds, and at least 10 between disputes. The trick is, the amount for those transactions doesn't matter, so just make sure you're buying a few $1-5 trinkets between refunds and you should be good.

Eventually, you're going to need a new payment method. You can only do a pr based refund once per payment method per company (multiple companies on one payment method is fine, just not the same company multiple times on one payment method). At this point, you're gonna need a drop account to use as a payment method. Personally, I recommend either paypal or cashapp, because if you ever need to submit docs, it's very easy to se both of them into allowing you to upload them rather than take the pictures live (paypal has upload as the default). This means using a fullz to verify a paypal/cashapp. It sounds difficult, but it's not that bad. You can get the fullz you're gonna use for this from a variety of sources, but I've had the greatest success sourcing fresh local fullz with real id pictures via this method: (/post/a62c49aca4b1b5d17313).

Once you have the information you're gonna use, including pictures of their dl, you're gonna use a burner phone with a prepaid sim to open a cashapp or a paypal using the fullz. They'll ask for your phone number (just-kill dot win), email (create an email to use for the fullz) name, dob, address, and ssn to verify the account to hold a balance. Once you submit all that, it'll either get approved or they'll ask for an id, which you just submit by uploading (if you have a real id like I suggest, this part is no worry at all). You might have to throw a few fullz at this before it works, but honestly it's pretty easy and the success rate is high, you don't need anything special. I gotta stress that using fresh fullz you source yourself with real id pictures makes this a freaking breeze, but you get fullz however you want.

Once you get the paypal/cashapp open, you're gonna also open a go2/greendot/chime/varo/other online bank using the same info, and connect that to the cashapp/paypal, as well as connecting the vcc all of those online banks generate. This isn't strictly necessary, but it makes your primary refunding account less likely to close in my opinion. The rule of 5 real transactions per refund and 10 per dispute applies here as well, and I personally wouldn't do a dispute on a drop paypal for fear of locking it. Once you've done all that, you're ready to load some money in and start using it as a payment method for refunding. My general rule of thumb is 3-5 $1-3k refunds per account, before I transfer the money out and move onto the next one. Don't get too greedy here, or the account will lock and you'll get burned.


Intermediate Receiving Address:

I'm not going to go super in depth on the zillow method, as I elaborated on that in the previous post. It's best for smaller orders, but it can still be used for these bigger ones, you just have to be willing to wait at the house until it gets delivered (or have someone do it for you). You just basically go on zillow, find a house for sale nearby, confirm that it's currently empty and not being lived in, then use it to receive packages for a week or two. It's definitely not a reliable solution, and there are much better ones that I'll explain in a second, but you could theoretically just use the zillow method for a good while, especially if you were doing ftid instead of pr.

A better, but more expensive solution is using an airbnb. You can verify an airbnb account with a fake id pretty easily, and just pay using gift cards. It's more expensive than the zillow method, but having full control over a house for the entire day of delivery reduces the chances of something with the delivery going awry to basically nothing. The other side of that coin is how much it costs for a single day, but if you're refunding a $2200 item, you can afford to pay $150 for an address to receive it. In my opinion, less is likely if you choose to do this than if you use a zillow listing, and if you have no other options it's not a bad solution. However, I do have one more option that I'm gonna list here.

THIS IT MY PERSONAL DROP ADDRESS SOLUTION. It's easy, convenient, and works perfectly for me, and I use it for literally every type of package I receive (drugs, debit cards, refunding packages, and more). I verify ipostal1/anytime mailbox/ any other 1583 form requiring package forwarder with a real street address under the same name as the fullz I set my payment method up under. These things are perfect for any drop address related needs. I ship the debit card for my payment method to one of these, and I use it to receive packages as well. You get a real street address, and there are over 2000 different locations all over the country for ipostal1 and another 2000 for anytime mailbox. A lot of people use reship (dot) com, but that's been burnt for years, as they only have a single address in the us. These types of package forwarding accounts are the HOLY GRAIL of drop addresses, with basically an unlimited supply of unique addresses, verifiable under any name, they forward to any location you want, and they have a reception to sign for and receive packages on your behalf. Ever since I figured out how to verify these, my drop address problem has been solved. In fact, I won't even include a drop address section on the expert version of this guide, because there isn't a better solution than these accounts. Unlike all the other free information here, I'm not going to tell you how to open these accounts, because that would fuck up my source of income. If you read through these guides and get to the point where you need one (or more) of these, you won't find anyone other than me who can sell you these, so you know what to do if you need one.

Intermediate Store List Creation Strategy:

Depending on the strategy you choose (pr vs ftid) there are two different ways you create a store list. Creating a store list for ftid is basically the exact same as the beginner store list creation method. Using selleramp (or cashout channel pricing) find items that are suitable to be refunded in bulk quantity. Then order them (to whatever address, just make sure to pay with paypal) from a store that sells them, and run through the list of refunding attempts in the order described above. If it works and you get refunded, great! Notate that on the list, and move on to the next. If you don't, oh well. Notate it on the list, and move on. Do this until you have a solid group of stores that you know will refund you via your chosen method.

To create a store list using the pr method is extremely easy. Pick any store you want, and order any item over like $2000. Use any payment method, whatever's most convinient, and I honestly recommend ordering to your house during this testing phase. Once you receive it, call the company and claim eb/dna and make sure they know you think the package was stolen. At this point, they'll probably have to escalate and you'll wait for an email, but sometimes they tell you if they need a pr right away. Either way, you're not going to file one. Once you find out whether or not they ask for a pr, return the item, and notate if they ask for one on your store list. Once you have a solid group of stores that ask for a pr, you've got your store list, and you're ready to start using drop addresses and accounts to rape those stores.

Intermediate Cashout:

At this point, selling on ebay/amazon/stockx under your own name really isn't a good idea anymore. The amount of inventory you're moving will have increased past what you can sell on those platforms without scrutiny. That's alright though, there are some pretty good other options. If you decide to go with the ftid route, your best option is likely gonna be a cashout channel on tele. I can't publicly post a link for any of those because it's against the rules, but there are plenty of reliable ones that I know of and have used personally that are easy to find if you have access to me. If you decide to go this route, creating your store list should be based around what items the cashout is giving the best % for at that moment.

If you decide to go the pr route, you have more options. For high value items like electronics, I've personally used itsworthmore (dot) com plenty of times. They payout via paypal, so just make sure you have a paypal drop account ready to receive payment. You're generally gonna get paid 40-60% on a site like that, similar to a cash out channel. Alternatively, you can list high value items on marketplace/craigslist to sell for cash. This is simpler, and you can get a larger percentage of the retail price, but you're probably going to have to wait way longer than for a website like itsworthmore. Which one is better? That's a matter of personal preference. Of course, you can definitely still use a cashout channel if you refund via pr, though the reason I didn't mention that initially is because there usually isn't a ton of overlap between products cashouts want and products you can get from refunding via pr, but there definitely is enough for you to use a cashout channel if you really want to. Again, just base your store list creation around the entity you are selling your products to.


Intermediate Overall Refunding Strategy:

This is the part where I summarize the overall strategy into a short list. I'm going to be doing two this one, one super brief one for the ftid version, then a little bit more of an in depth summary for my pr strategy.

FTID Strategy Summary

1. Use cashout channels to determine which items try refunding
2. Test out different stores using the following method, and always pay with paypal. DNA -> FTIDNA -> EB -> LIT -> Paypal Claim DNA -> Paypal Claim Returned but not Refunded -> Bank Claim
2.5. Optional: Source a fullz and use it to set up a drop paypal/cashapp to use after you create your store list
3. Once you have a list amassed of which items can be refunded from which stores, and how, use the zillow/airbnb/ipostal1 methods to secure a drop address
4. Order items and refund them from all of the stores you know work using the method in step 2 to your drop address, until the stores all stop refunding that specific set of info (the bundle of drop address payment method and billing info).
5. Set up a new drop account to pay with, a new drop address to receive the items, and go do it all over again. Rinse and repeat.
6. Send items to cashout, receive payments using your paypal/cashapp drop account.
7. Save the profits and reinvest until you have multiple refunding profiles operating at once.

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